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Re: What is happening to English DanceSport??

Tuesday, 16 October 2007 10:41

@ polkadancer

If you want to slate EADA then go ahead , I will not defend nor criticise them as I (as you know) try not to get involved in the Political side of dancing. However to state that the British dancers absolutely dont give a damn is totally unfair and slanderous. Unless you personally know all of the British dancers and know what thier feelings are then please refrain from making such accusations. It seems that you have insulted the Canadians (amongst others)and are now moving on to the British. By all means continue with your ridiculous political war  , but leave the British dancers out of it !

Re: What is happening to English DanceSport??

Tuesday, 16 October 2007 11:13

el cordobes:

.if you realised the number of dancers who absolutely do not give a damn ..... anymore of what is going on !!!

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polkadancer:

After an English dancer informed me in another topic on this forum that I should know the number who "absolutely do not give a damn"  I received an e-mail .   .

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el cordobes you now have a lot of apologising and explaining to do

No further comment necessary from me.  except

I will graciously accept the apologies due to me..

Re: What is happening to English DanceSport??

Wednesday, 17 October 2007 08:03

Elaine:

 I have a suggestion. If every top coach in the country were to take one couple under their wing and give them two free lessons a week along with encouragement, support and guidance, could this make a difference??? Would our coaches be prepared to do this??

 

Dear Elaine

You are someone for whom I have great respect. Although you might be horriefied we agree in quite a large part of our thinking. 

You care enough and do give a damn and therefore take the opportunity to study the political situation so you can express opinion based on fact.

You are wise enough to understand the political situation cannot be avoided as it governs every aspect of competitive dancing.

I admire that in you and we do not even need to agree in our opinions.

Please can I throw out a few random comments - not in any order of preference - as to why I think your suggestion is not feasible.

Jealousy is a terrible thing

1. There is so much jealousy in dancing that any coach/judge taking one couple under their wing will probably lose their other couples. The other couiples will believe we are just as good so why should xzy get free coaching and special treatment.

This is even more relevant if this is the sole coach for shall we say 3 couples with potential.

2.  Couples go to 2 or 3 or more coaches so are the other coaches going to be happy that another coach is taking all the credit for the couple and possible improvement

Conversely Coach A providing the "free lessons" encouragment and guidance is not going to be happy if the couples are dancing what they are told by coach B and coach C rather than what coach A wants.

3. If a coach was to adjudicate and mark 1st a couple they were training and guiding "free" then there would be uproar and claims of fix/fiddle

4.  The information must be in the public domain and this could lead to enormous friction and dis-satisfaction with claim and cunter-claim.

There could even be nasty smears of a personal nature as to why the coach is training guiding and providing special treatment for just one couple and innuendo as to what the coach is getting "in return"..

5. Couples could take advtage of the coach giving them free tuition and use the money sved to have lessons with anothe coach.

6. Top Coaches are Professionals.  They paid large sums of money to gain their knowlege and build their careers (without free lessons) they did it te hrd way with decitaion and sacrifice so is it realistic for them to advance the cause of one couple without receiving a Professional Fee at the expense of others?

7.  Would you be willing to give up lets say between Ninety and One Hundred and Fifty Pounds a week of your gross income?

This  to help a couple get to the top - and who then might leave and go  to another coach

8. Some coaches pay "floor rent" per hour and they will have to pay the space fee for giving a free lesson.  I know you can say well the couple can pay this - but then the lesson is not free and all coaches do have various expenses also.

9. Compete in certain events on the international stage  and when it is known you are under the wing of a certain person then you are going to get very bad marks and it could even hamper progress in international events...

SORRY to be a "downer".but  I am a realist.

Re: What is happening to English DanceSport??

Friday, 19 October 2007 08:05

Dear Elaine

First can I say I absolutely understand that your suggestion was genuine and was something for consideration to try and improve the situation.  Second how much  enjoy the swapping of our views with each respectin the others view. Thank you.

I have the feeling that the idea will never come into being not only for the reasons I previously suggested but also for other reasons.

It is not only the english Amateur competitive dance world that has declined but also the Profssional. 

There was a time when at  Blackpool they had a North of England Professional Championship and you would have over 100 dance and now sometimes there are not even 12 couples for the British National Professional Championship

Something like 8 maybe 10 years ago I attended a meeting at Blackpool during the British Nationals.

The meeting was organuised by the BDF and intended to discuss and seek a way forward and the topic was something like "the future of English Dancing".  There was a lot of discussion very free and very open.  We heard statements like "If my knowledge is not worth paying for then it certainly  cannot be worth it free".  I understand what was intended although some were angry.

It was agreed that something should be done. It was agreed that this should be exactly as you say concentrated on the future juvenile, junior, youth and young amateur.  A committee was set up it included Barry Free of Supadance, the Donaldsons, Phillip Wyllie - who has made several endeavouirs to provide good and novel support for dancing and not been given the backing he deserved by the competitors - and I think from BDF Stephen Hillier.

It really never got very far.  Competitors did not want coaching from this or that one. Coaches did not want pupils being coached by that person.  Not from fear of losing a pupil but because of contradictory ideas styles and opinipns.  It was a tragedy that such an initiative was not nurtured.and a way round the problems found.

I carefully read all that you posted and I completely agree that many of the things I mentioned already happened but I believe would be intensified if there was "free coaching".

I think we tentatively agree that the reputation of a coach is measured by many through the success of their pupils.  That too may be a contributing factor.

Please let me make a few comments on your reponses to me and add a few additional thoughts.

The selection.

This could be almost impossible.  Since reputations are built on success every coach is going to want to give "free" tuition to the one who will earn them the greatest credit.  Those lower down would end up not bring wanted. 

Also teaching methods vary so much.  What suits one couple does not suit another and it is so important that there is a harmony and understanding between the coach and the pupil.

Some coaches are better than others with juveniles and juniors.

I think it would be considered a breach of rights to tell a couple "You cannot take lessons with anyone else.

2 or 3 coaches.

Personally this is something I have never understood. Perhaps yes if it for this dance wíth that one and so on but most important is one coach in whom you trust and believe and have a rapport.  Start getting conflicting ideas on the same dance and the money is just being wasted Ditch the one in whom you least believe.

Many do make it with just one coach and most especially in juvenile, junior, youth..  

Brian and Carmen indicate in their interview that they only had 3coaches during their entire career.

Fixing and Fiddling

As I said elsewhere yes the accusations happen now.  Sometimes when people do not even know for sure if the xcoah ndeed teaches the couple. But if it was public knowledge that A coached xyz for free then the claims would certainly intensify.

Expense.

I am not trying to be dismissive as I know just how very expensive dancing is.

I also believe - sorry to be !political" that the IDSF has to accept the reponsibility for allowing some countries to hav "Professional" Amateurs who compete against the "true" amateur. If they were going to allow couples from any country to carry out what to me are Professional duties coaching competitors, demonstrating, travelling the world free for "appearnces" - then they should have introduced a new class completely. 

The situation now is very unfair and Eglish Amateurs - the true ones - are at a great disadvantage.  

However dancing has always involved expense - and years ago - whilst lower sums were charged - so too were the wages lower.  .

Couples will tell you it is "so expensive" and then spend  fortune on practise clothes and track suits.  Peer pressure is a terrible thing.

Gossip.

I am very afraid that there would be nasty personal comments but do not want to go any further.

Getting to the top and going to another coach.

Sadly what happens is sometimes when a youth or even Amateur makes it they are told by many different sources "Now you need to add a new dimension  you need another coach.  If you do not expand then you will be overtaken by new up and coming couples".

Markings of the international dance scene.

I absolutely agree that on the IDSF International Stage English couples are generally marked badly and many times undeservedly so.  I have seen English judges mark english coupls badly when abroad just to create a good impression with the locals! . Then they go home and write wonderful things about the couple they did not mark!!

I was rather thinking of those who might be coached free by the likes of Mr. Burns and Mr. Stopford who are now "no go areas for IDSF" and the situation would be aggravated.

But if we carry this idea to its ultimate conclusion then we have to accept that England has no future on the English stage - and that I never will. accept or at least not in the middle distance future.

There are many excellent coaches in Britain who are ignored by the ambitious because they are not "fashionable" names or considered "old fashioned". 

Controversial words now. 

 I was told rfankly by a top coach "I have a limited time to built  my life as a coach.  I have to meet all my own expenses, create a future for my family, pay my own health contributions and prepare my own retirement. I am expected to have a certain life style and support so many events etc which cost money . I do not know what tomorrow will bring. If english couples do not want to pay for my knowledge then for sure the overseas couples will.  I have no choice but to teach where I can earn income"

It is important to remember that if a coach seriously wishes to give free coaching and guide a couple they are free to do so at any time.  It can also be absolutely confidential since it is not part of any official policy or scheme. 

Some say "I would if I could but I cant".  Sounds good but is not true. 

There are many ways to help dancers and never ever be mentioned or acknowledged or seek recognition.

The position with coaches etc I know is very debatable but they are not the reason for the poor international position of England on the national stage.

SORRY!

P..S.  For everyone - I am not and never have been a coach.

Re: What is happening to English DanceSport??

Friday, 19 October 2007 19:00

polkadancer:

Dear Elaine

First can I say I absolutely understand that your suggestion was genuine and was something for consideration to try and improve the situation.  Second how much  enjoy the swapping of our views with each respectin the others view. Thank you. I can totally agree that something like this is never likely to happen but I think we all agree that for probably a combination of various different reasons, dancesport in England is on the decline.  So do others have any ideas of what can be done to reverse this trend and if so how could they be implemented and who should be responsible for doing this.

It is not only the english Amateur competitive dance world that has declined but also the Profssional. 

There was a time when at  Blackpool they had a North of England Professional Championship and you would have over 100 dance and now sometimes there are not even 12 couples for the British National Professional Championship - To look to the future it is often quite relevant to look at the numbers in the juvenile and junior ranks over the past few years.  Lack of numbers in the younger age groups is without a doubt going to mean a lack of quantity and quality in the amatuer and professional grades in the years to come as these young dancers are going to be tomorrows professionals.  The number of competitors currently competing in the juv/junior fields at the present time is in my opinion much lower than it was say 10 years ago, which can surely only indicate that we are likely to see an even higher drop in the numbers of competing Amatuers and Pros in the years to come??

 

Something like 8 maybe 10 years ago I attended a meeting at Blackpool during the British Nationals.

The meeting was organuised by the BDF and intended to discuss and seek a way forward and the topic was something like "the future of English Dancing".  There was a lot of discussion very free and very open.  We heard statements like "If my knowledge is not worth paying for then it certainly  cannot be worth it free".  I understand what was intended although some were angry.

It was agreed that something should be done. It was agreed that this should be exactly as you say concentrated on the future juvenile, junior, youth and young amateur.  A committee was set up it included Barry Free of Supadance, the Donaldsons, Phillip Wyllie - who has made several endeavouirs to provide good and novel support for dancing and not been given the backing he deserved by the competitors - and I think from BDF Stephen Hillier.

It really never got very far.  Competitors did not want coaching from this or that one. Coaches did not want pupils being coached by that person.  Not from fear of losing a pupil but because of contradictory ideas styles and opinipns.  It was a tragedy that such an initiative was not nurtured.and a way round the problems found. - I remember this very well. They formed an organisation known as the Young Dancesport Talent Foundation and held some fundraising events. These including at least one competition day were sucessful and all the professionals who adjudicated and helped run these events gave freely of their time. I believe that the problems began to arise when they attempted to use the money raised for training purposes for the young dancers. Eventually it was decided to give grants for training to the finalists of the Juvenile and Junior British National Championships and the United Kingdom Closed Championships.  My own daughter was a grateful recipient of these grants which were very much appreciated by us but I think that due to opposition from various fronts they were not really able to use the money in the way in which they had hoped.

Philip Wylie however obviously dosn't give up on things that easily and he is now involved in a new initiative known as Dance for England which hopes to encourage children to take up dancing as well as provide regional training opportunities for Juveniles in conjunction with EADA.  Their website can be seen at: http://www.danceforengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=26

I also believe - sorry to be !political" that the IDSF has to accept the reponsibility for allowing some countries to hav "Professional" Amateurs who compete against the "true" amateur. If they were going to allow couples from any country to carry out what to me are Professional duties coaching competitors, demonstrating, travelling the world free for "appearnces" - then they should have introduced a new class completely.  - Or ensure that every IDSF member country has the same rules (or lack of as the case maybe) so that every IDSF competitor is on a level playing field.

The situation now is very unfair and Eglish Amateurs - the true ones - are at a great disadvantage - Couldn't agree more! 

 I was told rfankly by a top coach "I have a limited time to built  my life as a coach.  I have to meet all my own expenses, create a future for my family, pay my own health contributions and prepare my own retirement. I am expected to have a certain life style and support so many events etc which cost money . I do not know what tomorrow will bring. If english couples do not want to pay for my knowledge then for sure the overseas couples will.  I have no choice but to teach where I can earn income" - A fully understandable philosophy and who can blame them but I think it is worth bearing in mind that there might well be English couples who would like to pay for their knowledge but be unable to afford it.  Yes at this moment in time overseas couples seem happy and willing to pay for our top English coaches. However, if we fail to produce champions in the future the top coaches of tomorrow are probably not going to be English, so how long before the tide turns and overseas couples are looking to other countries for training.  In fact I think it is probably happening already, I know of English couples who go and train in countries like Italy as well as attending training camps in countries such as Estonia. Even things like current Child Protection Law, whilst of course important, make organising things like a training camp in England a practically impossible task.

 

It is important to remember that if a coach seriously wishes to give free coaching and guide a couple they are free to do so at any time.  -  I daresay that some probably do and deserve a pat on the back for so doing, although of course if it is confidential then only they and the recipients of their good nature will be aware of it.

Some say "I would if I could but I cant".  Sounds good but is not true. 

There are many ways to help dancers and never ever be mentioned or acknowledged or seek recognition.

 

The position with coaches etc I know is very debatable but they are not the reason for the poor international position of England on the national stage - I wouldn't for one moment want to blame coaches for the poor position of England on the International Stage. I don't think that there is any one given problem responsible, more a combination of lots of different factors, many of which have been discussed on this forum

El Cordobes - I totally agree with much of what you say in your last post but would just like to pick up on the subject of the lack of numbers of youngsters competing in England.  There is without a doubt a lack of numbers competing on the open circuit but there are many many more who compete regularly on the closed circuits such as the medallist and Supadance League.  Unfortunately very very few of these ever seem to make the transition from the closed to the open circuits mainly in my opinion because 95% of the dance schools in England do not encourage their pupils to do so.  We could have the next Donnie Burns or Marcus Hilton out there but if they are not encouraged and helped to progress to bigger and better things, we may never even know they exist let alone have the pleasure of watching them become a World Champion one day. 

So we have discussed lots of reasons why English couples are perhaps not doing as well as we would like in International competitions but of course the crux of the matter is what if anything can be done about this?  Or do we just accept that this is the way it is and the way it will stay?