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Re: EADA "The Ruling Body"


keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Sunday, 18 January 2009 18:55 Any organisation profit or non profit making which is so slow to react and does not have the facilities to react to a rapidly changing world doesn't derserve to have support. Unless it's prepared to introduce necessary change as and when to improve its efficiency for the benefit of those who it purports to govern then it doesn't in my view have the right to demand suppport let alone respect. As a business person, I am constantly reviewing how I do things to improve not just my business but how I can offer much better service to people who buy my services. I'll soon be out of business if I didn't. The same should apply to the BDC, EADA and other organisation in our world and out of it. Oh people say to me the BDC has no money. My answer to that is two-fold. 1. You don't need money per se to change the way you do things. Small changes can have large effects. 2. If it has no money then what has it done with all the money it's been getting off us all for the past 70 years of its existence?
propro Joined on 05 Jan 2009 Total posts: 71	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Sunday, 18 January 2009 20:03 Keggs Excuse me........................are you a Juvenile dancer pretending to be an adult? You even contradict yourself and change from one response to the next. You surely cannot hope anyone will take you seriously.............................already you are used for knock about fun by members who congratulate you under one name and insult you under another. You are so naive you say in one breath "I am not playing any more" and then "thank you" the next because you think you have supporters and cannot see the reality. It is the same member using various names. However I am mindful of Peters words so lets stick with dance. You tell me ..............you know of absolutely nothing good that the British Dance Council has done? Wake up. Open your eyes. Drop the hypocrisy. If the BDC said "Dance is Sport" for you they would be hotter than a boiling kettle. To quote you: Stop attacking those attempting to do a difficult job. I do not like to mention names and make things personal BUT Robert Bellinger is the relatively new Vice President of the BDC. Linda Bellinger -Ivanets is the BDC Representative for the the British Competitors and I can tell you the Bellinger family are honourable trustworthy Professionals who have done and will continue to do more for dancing in any one year than you will in your lifetime. You disagree and believe you are better than them and wish to repeat your fellow Professionals cannot be trusted then do so now. I name only one family out of many. Get a grip on reality and put your jealousy behind you. You owe a huge apology to Professionals throughout the U.K.
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Sunday, 18 January 2009 22:07 Dear propro How dare you. I have been consistent in everything I have said. My argument is with an inefficient organisation not individual professionals or even the profession in general. But the fact remains it is my professional colleagues who I believe are hampering progress. The amateurs in contrast are making progess suggesting change but are deliberaly stonewalled at every turn. Your personal attack on me, my integrity and my own professionalism is testament to this but I will ignore it as to rise to it....... You say: "To quote you: Stop attacking those attempting to do a difficult job. I do not like to mention names and make things personal BUT Robert Bellinger is the relatively new Vice President of the BDC. Linda Bellinger -Ivanets is the BDC Representative for the the British Competitors and I can tell you the Bellinger family are honourable trustworthy Professionals who have done and will continue to do more for dancing in any one year than you will in your lifetime. You disagree and believe you are better and wish to repeat your fellow Professionals cannot be trusted then do so now. I name only one family out of many. Get a grip on reality and put your jealousy behind you. You owe a huge apology to Professionals throughout the U.K." What has the fact that Robert Bellinger being the newly appointed chairman of the BDC got to do with anything. I have not mentioned him or his family. So I would ask that you desist from deliberately trying to make me out as some subversive. He no doubt does a wonderful job given the fact that the body he is chairman of gives the appearance of douing a lot when the reality is quite the opposite.. The fact is the BDC as a collective organisation has been around for about 70 years. As the supposed (and self appointed) governing body of the dance sport world in this country it has presided over the demise of dancing in this country which has now lasted for at least 25 years. And it has done precious little about it. Yes, you could argue that changes in the country - economic, social etc will have affected theb dance world but that is an excuse and anot a reason for oing nothing about it. Unlike other sports it has never to my knowledge produced one document or blueprint in showing what can be done to improve things nationally or locally. That to my mind is an abrogation of its responsibility as a governing body. From what I hear it even refused to have anything to do with the successful BBC TV programme when originally approached. If this is an example of setting standards in good governance then my view of the whole Dance Sport world is well founded. You can falsely accuse me of some supposed jealousy but what or whom I have to be jealous of or about is beyond me. I no longer have any interest in trying to change an inefficient organisation which has no idea how to change. I have better things to do and too old. But I have every right to make my views known. You might not like what I say. That is your right. But it is also my right to say what I think. While I have attacked views that is perfectly acceptable in a democracy, I have not attacked anyonepersonally. This forum is made up it seems with people who are more interested in attacking others than coming up with viable ideas. Those who try to suggest ideas are then accused of being juvenile. People like minime, ricardo and marvin might just have ideas butwill you and others listen to them. Somehow I doubt it. As for Robert Bellinger, he is relatively young so lets hope he instills a little more democracy and umph into this ailing body. However, no doubt if he does have the gumption to try and change the organisation from within he'll be personally attacked for doing so. Organisations like people, don't like change, that's well understood. But change has to happen if anything is to develop. This simple fact which you won't accept is stifling the sport's development in this country. And is shown up very well with the lack of competitors at home (particularly juveniles), and the lack of success internationally. No doubt the latter is all the fault of the IDSF and its corrupt judges. As I have feet in two camps nowadays I see things from 2 angles. Last year, EADA was put under enormous pressure by - guess who - professionals. EADA handled this well despite some professionals even having the audacity to try and have EADA disbanded. Why? I have my own ideas about that. The BDC is beginning to outgow its usefulness. It is the equivalent of the Neanderthal. And we know what happened to them. They weren't prepared to adapt or had the facilities to do so. Look at Woolworths - a great institution - no more for the very same reasons. For your information propro I want the BDC to succeed. I want it to be the legal governing body. But I want it to be one which is accountable and has some teeth. And is prepared to do what is necessary as the National Skating Association did some 5 years ago and is now reaping benefits; similarly the Lawn Tennis Association.Dance Sport deserves just as much. You can personally attack me as much as you like; you can name drop as much as you like but there is an old saying: Once you do resort to this you've lost the argument. You said :"You tell me ..............you know of absolutely nothing good that the British Dance Council has done?" Except for introducing Juvenile dress and the Everybody's born to dance scheme, there is little else the BDC has really done from what I can see. It makes rules and does nothing else. People even have to pay an exorbitant amount of money just to read the rules. They should be on the BDC web site. If people wish to buy a hard copy so be it but to expect teachers, dancers, parents etc to buy this important booklet as a first resort is disgraceful. And I'm not alone in holding this view. As for the dance scheme, while a good idea in principle it is badly organised with no proper monitoring system that the whole of the Dance Sport world can find out and not just a few people at the BDC or some other office. Simply offering it is ridiculous and expecting it to succeed in flooding dance schools and competitions with new excited youngsters is ridiculous. In any event, I along with probably many other teachers have been teaching in primary school with great success far longer than the scheme's been around. I have no need for this scheme but again that isn't the point. The BDC is comprised as you will no doubt know of an an inbuilt majority of professionals, most of those representing organisations that have their own members interests - namely teachers such as myself at heart. They do not have the interests of dancing in general at heart, in particular competitive dancing.Understandable but in my humble opinion very shortsighted. Even the BDF have become somewhat exasperated with the slow cumbersome aproach of the BDC. There are no new ideas coming out yet they have numerous committees If you with you great respect for the socalled greats of this wonderful sport of ours have ideas to improve things inthis country then by all means share them with us. Do what Peter has asked. But i doubt you will be able to refrain from attacking me for daring to disagree with you and stand my ground.
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Sunday, 18 January 2009 22:52 Dear propro The first part of your post makes interesting reading. You may well be right in your assertion about other posters. Perhaps you are one of them. But if that is the case then, who is the juvenile. Further, if these people are deliberately switching simply to try and make a fool of me then it just goes to show what a wonderful group of people (i think not) visit this site. It also demonstrates very aptly why Dance Sport is in such dire circumstances. If I am naiive it's certainly not about the politics of dance sport but about the people who pretend to care about dance sport. I take what people say on these sites at face value. I do not hide behind strange names. I am open which will of course leave me open to attack. It doesn't bother me if someone attacks the views I hold. It does bother me when supposedly intelligent adults personally insult of play games. In fact the latter is far more obnoxious. That is the real juvenile behaviour. Best wishes Steve
propro Joined on 05 Jan 2009 Total posts: 71	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Sunday, 18 January 2009 23:08 keggs Without wanting to be controversial I don't spend all day on the internet. I've got better things to do. . ---- keggs Whatever your views about what's happening in Dance Sport people give up their time to help get involved in necessary political organisations and in trying to solve the growing problems we have. No one takes on their roles knowing the job will be easy. If you think you can do better and have a vision which people will fall over to follow then stop carping and get yourself elected. If you can't then start making positive comments instead of attacking everyone and everything. ---- Steve - Pretty pathetic -Contradiction, phoney idignation and airy fairy gossip - I heard this I heard that - but please do not get into reality and mentioning names. You actually inform a member I cannot reply to you because someone was nasty to me Either you trust your fellow Professionals or not which is? If it is some and not others then give us the names of the untrustworthy. Lets face it EADA is not never has been and never will be the ruling body for English Dance. It may be ill right now but we not want total demise.
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 00:16 Dear propro I seem to have got under your skin propro. I am very sorry for that. The truth as I see it obviously hurts. Your antipathy towards EADA is showing. Let's face it without EADAs selection events there would be a pretty poor showing at most comps these days. Even the British team at this year's junior festival will be relying on a weakened juvenile section. I know that as a fact. Is that what you really want to see happen In British Dance Sport. You can call me all the names under the sun propro but who is really to blame for this sorry state of affairs. You can't blame EADA (even thought you might want to) they aren't responsible for promotion and development of Dance Sport in the UK. The BDC won't let them - treading of professional toes and all that. Incidentally, I didn't understand parts of your post - it didn't seem to make sense. Sorry. By the way, it might interest you to know that despite your boast that the BDC is the only governing body worth its salt it is going to run into a bit of trouble with its everybody's born to dance scheme some time in the near future. The BDC know all about what I'm talking about but I'm more concerned with what it is doing about it. If the BDC is truly the governing body that I hoped it would be it would be working hard at doing something about it and regularly informing everyone in the dance world what's happening. But as far as I am aware there is just silence. What am I talking about well reading the EADA forum might help. At least EADA keep their members informed. BTW I'm not the only professional crank who want to see change. There are many others now (some very prominent professionals) asking pertinent questions. I just happened to start asking these question 20 years ago before things got decidedly worse. And with a recession evidently looming I expect competition dancing to suffer even more. The top competitors might be OK but what about the grass roots of Dance Sport. That's where the future lies as it does with any activity. Continue insulting me by all means but can you avoid the reality of what is happening for much longer? Incidentally, you seem to interpret my supposed mistrust of fellow professionals in terms of corruption. Or at least that's the impression I get. That couldn't be further from the truth. It isn't individuals that I mistrust it's their organisations. If I haven't made that clear before then I do now. I trust EADA to fulfil their obligations to my son because I know they do. I can't say the same for the BDC. It takes money off their corporate bodies (and by inference me and other people pro and amateur) but in reality what does it give back? If it was reorganised and did what I expect a governing body to do then I would have more respect for it and dare I say it would give it my wholehearted support. But the truth is, the BDC is and always will be a slow, inefficient, outdated institution. It's not something I want for ma sport that's vibrant and (internationallyat least) appears to be going places despite all the unfortunate politicking going on. Best wishes Steve ps Why are you so afraid of EADA? Is it because (as I believe many pros think it is) a threat to the BDC and by inference professionals.
JohnBull Joined on 15 Jan 2009 Total posts: 19	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 10:03 keggs insulting me by all means but can you avoid the reality of what is happening for much longer? Steve ps Why are you so afraid of EADA? Is it because (as I believe many pros think it is) a threat to the BDC and by inference professionals. ---- Sir, I am not propro and I am not insulting you but having read your words in this topic and others at dancesportinfo.net also on the EADA forum I can only say I am eternally grateful that my child is not likely to come in contact with you at any venue where you give vent to your nastiness. My sympathies are with your own son and any unfortunate pupils. I am guessing you are short in stature. You have so many of the "symptoms" of short men. To ride your own "hobby horse" you have totally ignored the comments I made in my opening post. Pros and Amateurs need to work together for the good of all not the domination you crave as you pay lip service to "unity".
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 11:45 Dear Mr Bull Please tell me exactly what it is that I have said you feel is so wrong. I may have very strong opinions on what I think is happening in the Dance Sport world and what I think needs to be done. No one else has come up with any ideas afterall. But I have not personally attacked anyone. People who actually know me will know I would never do that. Yet I have endured many, many personalised attacks from various people here - re-read propro's earlier insults. However, it might interest you to know that many people (including other professionals) actually agree with much of what I have to say. Some may find I am too radical but nevertheless have still come to the same conclusions as me quite independently; some more well known than me have tried on numerous occasions to initiate change but like me have come up against the same brick wall. By all means disagree with me but please discuss the issues. I notice you haven't made a comment on any points that I made so have no idea whether you think they are right in your opinion. Why haven't you. You seem more content in passing comment on the way I put my opinions across rather than actually discussing the points. In all the time I have been on this forum very few have offered any ideas or solutions to any of the problems we face either at home or abroad. Instead, they simply carp and whine and blame all and sundry. If someone dares to offer a solution they are called pathetic, juvenile - how dare they spoil the game. I am sorry if I have spoilt the game. I was obviously naiive to think people visiting these forums actually wanted to discuss issues properly with out making direct personal comments. I was obviously wrong. If you don't want anything to change then say so. By all means play your games but do me and others one favour and stop personally attacking those who do their best and give up their time to help improve the lot of dancers. EADA council members do so without pay. They put themselves in the firing line because they believe they can make a difference. The same applies dare I say it to the pro organiastions although I have to say it appears to me that it is amateur organisations that are bearing the brunt of these insults. The truth is that EADA acts a proper governing body. The BDC doesn't. EADA gives back to its members exactly what its members want. However, because of the constraints the BDC applies (and EADA readily accept to maintain harmony) it is unable to do more. Yes, EADA will get it wrong but I believe they listen. Members do have the chance to argue and get things changed. I as a pro have little chance. As such, I might be a professional but I would be more than happy to have EADA as my ruling body. At the very least I would have a very real opportunity to offer suggestion. The board does listen. For example, they could have turned me away form their forum because I am a pro. But they don't. The BDC doesn't even have one. Why doesn't it? If it is comfortable in its position why does it not offer dancers the chance to discuss issues.This is one small change that Mr Bellinger could offer. As for me, If I am perceived by you as being nasty then I am sorry for that. I don't agree. If guilty of anything it is perhaps over forcefulness and being over passionate but that is my nature. I hate injustice of any sort and will do and say what I think is needed to redress it. Yes, it does get me into trouble but you can't accuse me of not tr ying. I want every person involved in this sport to feel part of the wonderful sport that it is. I don't want (what is happening and has happened for many years) a sense of fear and retribution if they dare try to suggest something is wrong. I am disgusted at what has and is happening to Dance Sport with absolutely no one who has the power prepared to do anything about it. Vested and personal interests are destroying what is a beautiful sport and leisure activity. We can and should be working together but instead there is mistrust with one side declaring they are in charge while in reality it isn't legally true. Some here dismiss EADA as a pimple on the backside of the profession and want it removed. But I ask you to take a cool look at what EADA has and is doing then decide for yourself whether what they offer is better or worse than what the BDC, teaching societies and other pro bodies actually offer. And I'm not just talking about its members but the whole gamut. You accuse me of being nasty. But the problem in this dance world is that too many people are not honest enough to admit that we have tremendous problems which need addressing. They bury their heads with many too frightened to say anything in case it affects them personally. I can well understand that but as far as I am concerned that's nasty. A fellow professional once told me that after discussions with another colleague he offered a suggestion. The response he got was "fine, providing it's not a threat to the BDC". What a way to treat people.That's nasty. People involved in our activity might not like being told by one of their own that the organisation of the sport is old fashioned, outdated and inefficient. But it is the truth. The truth hurts but sometimes it has to be said, nevertheless. If it isn't the truth why isn't the sport a huge success? If by telling people the truth I am being nasty then so be it. The fact is despite programmes such as Strictly Come Dancing, we have not moved on any further. We still do things in the same way hoping that everything will some day get better. It won't. Common sense tells me that. That's madness.
moderate-man Joined on 09 Dec 2006 Total posts: 61	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 12:37 You keep harping on & on about the success of Strictly Come Dancing yet totally miss the contradiction in your argument. The BBC class it as Light Entertainment not Sport . Perhaps if your glorious EADA could realise the sense of that then they would progress further. I agree that the BDC are not the best or fastest moving Organisation in the world. However do not criticize everyone involved. There are many different member bodies involved who do their best to change attitudes within the Council. The BDF is a prime example. It promotes many great events within the UK. It is non profit making and its executive board gives its time free. But horror of horrors for you , they are all highly Qualified and respected Professionals. They have suggested many changes that would benefit both Amateur and Professional Dancers and organisations over the past ten years only to be opposed on each occasion particularly by your magnificent EADA Chairman. The DPA is the organisation that represents the Promoters of all the Competitions that you seem to believe are EADA events. EADA promote nothing except the ideals of the IDSF. Whilst your dream may be of a world recognised sport of Competitive Dance it ain't going to happen . Whilst individuals like you speak for unity but promote division by your misguided and misinformed opinions then we are all going nowhere.
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 13:07 Hi moderate-man I only have short time to respond but I am glad you did. First may I thank you as being the only one who comes to this forum who actually does have something useful to say about the issues at hand. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with you I appreciate. Perhaps we can both learn something. I agree that the BBC programme class Strictly as light entertainment that wasn't my point. My point was that when this series was first mooted, I have been given to understand by a fellow pro that the BDC dismissed it as having no value. Whether it is light entertainment or not if the BDC is the governing body as it believes itself to be then surely to not get involved was the BDC's biggest PR mistake ever. As for the BDC itself it is madeup as you rightly say of different corporate bodies. That's the trouble primariy for me with the organisation. It isn't because it is made up of pros predominately per se but it corporate nature. Most sporting bodies that I know about has an affilate structure. This is a membership based system similar to EADA itself. The body iscloser to its members. The BDC's structure by its very nature will emanate an aloofness and as a consequence is going to slow and cumbersome. For me in the 21st century that's not good enough. Th BDF is a great organisation. It is forward thinking but nevertheless is in my opinion still hampered by values which hark back to the past. That said, at least it listens but it is just one body out of many. The real problem for us is that most of the control is in the hands of the teaching societies whose main focus is not competitive dancing. yet they wield the most power. I have no more time now but will come back later to answer your other points. Best wishes Steve