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Re: EADA "The Ruling Body"


keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Monday, 19 January 2009 15:51 Hello moderate-man I'll try and reply to your other points now I have a little more time before I teach again. First a couple of corrections for you. The BDF have as you rightly say offered many suggestions which could improive our world. One I believe was to restructure the BDC but was rejected. I have no idea what was in their blueprint but I would hope that it was an improvement on the present structure. One other proposal however, I would not be happy in seeing introduced. This was effectively the demise of EADA and the other amateur bodies. I can well understand the chairman reaction to this one. To me it is again a demonstration of one side which dominates currently trying to further dominate (or decimate more accurately) another group which is in a minority. Not at all how I see democracy working in practice. Re the DPA etc. I think you have misread what I wrote or perhaps I didn't make it clearer. Whichever, I will try to elaborate. At a comp I attended yesterday there was a low turn out of juvenile and junior competitors. Normally the turn out is quite good so there may be other factors at play. However, in general, the numbers os competing children is in my view very poor but little is being done about. EADA does not have the power (let alone the will) to do anything about this. However it does try to offer children the chance to gain points with their selection comps. Many pros feel that this new system had diluted the former championship system. I have some sympathy with this view but Ithe reality from what I see is that without these selection competitions many events would not be so successful. What matters to me is promotion and develping grass roots Dance Sport but the BDC either has no interest or the will to do it. Instead they do what they always do - leave it it to professional colleagues to promote their own businesses. That as far as I am concerned is an abrogation of responsibility by the BDC. People here and elsewhere might not like me saying that but it is how I feel. And having studied many other sports organisations the latter (even skating) leave the Dance Sport world behind. Incidentally you attacked EADA as being a poodle of the IDSF. I don't agree. EADA has its own reservations but the fact of the matter is EADA is a member of the IDSF and has agreed to accept their rules and regulations. That's not the same as being a poodle. It is also up to EADAs members to decide to withdraw from the IDSF. As for the DPA, they do sterling work as far as I can tell. They introduced the club comps but while it isa great idea the DPA can't do any more. One little thought - the number of dance promoters has dwindled rapidly in the last 30 years. Those involved now will not be with us forever. Who else will continue. Finally, you have effectively accused me of creating disharmony. May I respecfully suggest that there has been disharmony far longer than I care to remember. There have been some improvements but in general unity will only come about when (a) People agree that change is needed (b) People whatever their niche in our world begin to work together instead of bickering (c) An efficient and better organised administration structure is created which will do what is necessary to promote, develop and educate with a proper vision of what we are about, where we want to get to and how long we want it to take. Until all 3 are implemented we will continue having the same old arguments. Best wishes Steve
minime Joined on 08 Jan 2009 Total posts: 84	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:59 Quote : "There have been some improvements but in general unity will only come about when (a) People agree that change is needed (b) People whatever their niche in our world begin to work together instead of bickering (c) An efficient and better organised administration structure is created which will do what is necessary to promote, develop and educate with a proper vision of what we are about, where we want to get to and how long we want it to take. Until all 3 are implemented we will continue having the same old arguments. " _______________________ This is a good plan, but will remain just that 'a good plan' so long as the discussion remains a private struggle for "recognition", and an affair of a "think-tank" of 2-3 already contradicting people. The lack of interest of the thousands of dancers is overwhelming. I recognize and appreciate the passion, and all the time a handful of dedicated to dance people have shown invested on this Forum alone. Some readers, and I expect their number is smaller than some may hope for, may agree/disagree but should remain cordial- if for the reason to appreciate that the contributors may actually care. It appears as soon as some readers run out of productive civilized and well thought out arguments they resort to name calling, and insults. This is unproductive. It may cause harm. May I suggest that the occasional curious reader may find the arguments and information in the Forum interesting and may tell their friends to visit, and themselves may come back for more...may even contribute themselves. The majority of the readers are probably curious to learn about dancesport civilized people who will find petty insults, unproductive finger pointing and mutual child-like immature behaviour unworthy their time and upsetting. Please realize, no matter how a good idea you may think you have, it will remain just that, an idea, ( and I let you discuss/argue/fight if the idea is good, bad or ugly) unless SOMEBODY brings it out from the deep cellar, out into the light , for recognition by a majority, and/or for implementation. Till then, create and have a good,or, bad time around a very small table, locked away in the cellar, try hard to live in a harmonious, or an unpleasant environment, all this while the life goes on outside of your closed cellar, completely oblivious of your 'think-tank'. Read over your attacks and insults than hug each other. It appears you all care. I tend to agree with Keggs who appears to analyze the situation from at least two different angles, at least he is not a one sided analyst obsessed with having to be right.
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Tuesday, 20 January 2009 13:28 Thanks minime for your kind words. I have however made a decision that unless the standard of debate increases here without people deliberately taking phrases and words out of context just to either poke fun or ridicule rather than discuss the issues properly and in an adult fashion, I have no interest in continuing. I have said this before I know but propros comment that people are using different names in order to hide their true selves just indictes to me that they are not really interested in proper debate never mind coming up with useful ideas. That's sad and to use his own words its juvenile behaviour. This forum could have been great to do what you suggest namely to get those ideas out there for proper discussion and hopefully people with the power to run with them so that our world evolves into a proper activity fit for the 21st century. I guess though that the vast majority of posters on this and other threads are more inerested in simply finding fault, ridiculing and generally causing mayhem. That's sad but is one I wish not be part of. You are right minime in saying that I do try to analyse things from many angles. While I am a professional I am not slavish to the unwritten rules of what I am supposed to be as a professional. Too many in this small world of ours are too puffed up for their own good. One last comment before I go. I was sent information today which only confirms what I have always believed, namely that in the main the professional bodies in the UK have no interest in amateurs and by inference are hostile to EADA. I won't elaborate suffice to say that it is a pity the sport isn't governed by amateurs. They have made a better job of their own particular section than the professionals have with theirs despite all the problems EADA has had to endure especially last year. One interesting thought though, which might just force change. Money as they say talks. The BDC says it doesn't have any. EADA is developing a strong financial base. Develop this well enough EADA and you might find professionals chomping at the bit to join you rather than describing you as I described in a nearlier post as a pimple on the backside of the BDC. Two schools already have joined their supporters section as affiliates. A third - mine will soon be joining them. Much need extra money I should think. Good luck EADA in your endeavours. Let's just hope my side of the fence realises that they can't have it their own way any more. Best wishes and goodbye Steve
minime Joined on 08 Jan 2009 Total posts: 84	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Tuesday, 20 January 2009 16:23 It was always a fact that Amateurs sponsored, supported with their bodies, skill and finances the whole dancesport business. The Amateurs are in a majority. Majority rules. Organisations which succeed in "controlling" Amateurs must suffice. In as much IDSF may appear not perfect, they sure had a foresight when they recognized the power of Amateurs. Without Amateurs the dancesport would collapse, even if the interest from advertisers and public was significant it could not support the Professional's financial needs. Without Amateurs there would be little need for Professionals andthey would starve. However, even without Amateurs the Professional dancesport would be divided. There are just too many camps trying to out do, and outperform one another, there is too much competition for Amateurs moneys and Amateurs support. Hail the Amateurs !
keggs Joined on 24 Dec 2005 Total posts: 406	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Tuesday, 20 January 2009 22:20 Just one last reply minime and that really is the end of me. Completely right in everything you say. Best wishes to you and good luck. You might need it with the nasties on this forum. Steve
minime Joined on 08 Jan 2009 Total posts: 84	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Wednesday, 21 January 2009 13:49 Off the topic Good Bye: No worries Steve about Mini-Me. The "nasties" you refer to are/(is) not original thinker(s), maybe a bitter copycat(s), and then the pitiful, either unable to resist responding to my Good Bye not realizing they are not a match for Dr. Evil's apprentice... unless of course they wish to continue to act and also look like Austin Powers. Why not accept the less fortunate, and tolerate them with a sense of humor ? You have just too much vested, and too much to contribute to this Forum ? Good luck Keggs.
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Wednesday, 21 January 2009 21:53 to keggs Can I interrupt this I’ll pat your back and then it’s your turn to pat mine? It’s pitiful to see how you try to appear the reasonable (see both sides) savant, all the while pushing the IDSF line. You keep looking for the solution encompassing both IDSF and WDC. Yet you never mention that the IDSF in their policy documents have very clearly stated they ALONE must control all of dancesport. They even kicked out their policy director for attempting to explain to the general membership the errors in that approach and the damage it would create. This is the problem. Do you really think that all the great professional dancers (past and present) and the legacy they have created in ballroom dance competitions can be dismissed? That the WDC will disappear or will agree to be run by the IDSF - a few opportunists who want to be on Olympic Committees? (although even they know the IOC will never accept them). I don’t doubt your good intent. In fact I can agree with some of what you say. But if you want to be part of a meaningful discussion you must start with basic truths. Examine IDSF more closely. And when you do take off your rose coloured glasses.
jazz Joined on 07 Apr 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Thursday, 22 January 2009 14:08 In fact I can agree with some of what you say. But if you want to be part of a meaningful discussion you must start with basic truths. Examine IDSF more closely. And when you do take off your rose coloured glasses. ---- May I cut in ? In fact I can agree with some of what you say. How big of you ? Should Steve be grateful ? This does not deserve a pat. .... if you want to be part of a meaningful discussion you must start with basic truths. How dare you ask for a permission to interrupt a cordial exchange and immediately insult ? Meaningful discussion ? Is that a definition of what you do when you talk down, insult, and ridicule others, or is the discussion meaningful when others agree with you ? Can you accept Steve has left. 'Thank yous' for his participation till now are in order, not a hypocritical comments. I apologize for the outburst, but back to what you considered a meaningful contribution: WDC may never agree to be run by IDSF, but what may happen is that Amateurs and Professional dancers as well as judges etc. will slowly drift towards those who offer the most attractive opportunities, including job opportunities, money making opportunities, opportunities to become known and noticed. IDSF is an attractive option. If WDC dos not take a lead and allows IDSF to grow, the way they do, WDC will be slowly assimilated, what I mean is not WDC, but WDC membership. The growth of IDSF has little to do with their Olympic dream, IOC recognition, they may even use it as a label which differentiate them from WDC. Opportunist ? You may call all successful entrepreneurs opportunists, all successful people opportunists, is that what you call meaningful comment ? It’s pitiful to see how you try to appear the reasonable. ...take off your rose coloured glasses. Keggs may have coloured glasses, but your glasses need some serious cleaning, you may even need a new prescription. Like it or not, unless you accept the facts based on evidence, you will not prevent, stop, even slow down IDSF from taking over from WDC, if it has not already happened. Just compare the WDC web sites, and the web sites of WDC national members with IDSF.net site and the sites off the IDSF national members. Which ones are more informative, up-to-day overall ? Who addresses the dancers need by more than just a lip service ? IDSF is on the roll and picking up momentum, the WDC alone may find it very difficult to even slow it down, and the unfortunate thing is, in my opinion, that WDC knows it. (Jazz is a completely neutral person who sees well, needs no glasses, and knows well that "truth" is a philosophical term, and as such it is meaningless to suggest "you must start with basic truths", since truth* for one may be an opposite for another.* Jazz deals with facts supported by evidence.) Go ahead, make my day.
minime Joined on 08 Jan 2009 Total posts: 84	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Thursday, 22 January 2009 17:51 Re: " BDC might not be perfect it is way better than the alternatives. It has always been recognised as the governing body of dance for the United Kingdom and the IOC cannot overturn that and expect to remain credible " __________ Dinosaurs have also been recognized as not perfect, but still were the top -of- the- food chain type of governing creatures. "Neither you, I nor IOC can overturn that and expect to remain credible." Even top scientists agree and recognize Dinosaurs were the tops. So what ? Do you believe in evolution ? Even a little house mouse is better off today than the once mighty Dinosaurs. What happened to that once upon a time governing group ? Have they stopped evolving with the rest of the creatures ? If BDC stops evolving they may follow the Dinosaurs lead.. Such is life, and its speaks not better, not worse of BDC, and no one will ever argue that BDC used to be the best and the greatest. Don't discount the alternatives. Lets look at and consider some : Lets start with BDF. The BDF's association with EADA. EADA's association with IDSF ( the 2009 World's leading International Amateur Dancesport Federation ). Not too shabby an alternative , is it ? Is EADA misstating their importance when identifying themselves with The Ruling Body ? It is possible and time will show. But BDC cannot afford to play "wait and see" , because EADA is advancing, making strong and probably long lasting associations with BDF, IDSF , leaving BDC in the dust and possibly redundant. BDC is not alone. There are many, less known, less recognized professional associations which find themselves in a similar situation. It is not BDC fault, they just forgot, or failed to catch and run with the ball, they stopped evolving. Too bad for them if they decide to sit on the side line, content to sit, watch and criticize the runner who holds the ball, zig-zagging, and moving forward while preparing for a touch down. BDC and similar organization will not fail because of their insignificant membership. Some of their members are the pick of the crop. But their loyalty to BDC will be tested. Some believe Dinosaurs have died out because they starved. Could BDC stop exist because of a financial starvation when their membership thins out, when they become redundant ?
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: EADA "The Ruling Body" Friday, 23 January 2009 21:18 The growth of IDSF has little to do with their Olympic dream, IOC recognition. Really? At one time there were two associations. One professional and one amateur. They worked in more or less harmony. The dissention occurred when a few individuals in IDSF said the IDSF must rule all of dancesport in order to follow IOC sporting principles. This is the root of the problem. This had nothing to do with what was beneficial for the competitors. If they had the competitors' welfare in mind, they could have easily reached an agreement with WDC - as far as the Olympics were concerned. The IOC has no problem with having professionals in the Olympics. Rogge has said many times - we must include more professionals. No, this has always been a power struggle. I agree the IDSF has done a much better job than WDC in selling their message. But is it of benefit to ballroom dance competitions? Obviously not. Relationships, both personal and corporate within the ballroom dance community, have never been worse. But don't say there has been no response from WDC. By offering amateur dancers an alternative organization the WDC made a historic decision. There are already many countries with WDC related amateur organizations equivalent to IDSF. You are right in saying it will be the national organizations that determine if we continue with two separate organizations or if the WDC and IDSF come to an agreement. Contrary to what you wrote, there are many signs that the road has already turned. The slick marketing of IDSF is being questioned. Spinning the facts, providing misleading information is being revealed. I believe the WDC are on the right track. Provide an alternative is number one. Provide a centre of excellence is number two. WDC without doubt has the best dancers and best coaches. Why shouldn't competitors want to be part of it?