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Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???


onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Saturday, 23 May 2009 21:29 Amazing - Blackpool 2009. Under 21 Latin. Those couples from all over the world (including Canada) who have reached the last 52 must all be taking from lessons from all the judges. Worse is that only 1 English couple have made it.........so guess the other english couples must be taking lessons elsewhere The reality? These are competent and knowledgable adjudicators marking withour fear or favour. If it comes to the final and one marks a couple 1st and another mark them 6th that is their honest opinion and why they are there. This is precisely why I say it is unfair to condemn all adjudication as being unfair and all dancesport as being tainted. Strange in tennis Rafal Nadal can get beat, Golf - Tiger Woods can get beat, Manchester united/Barcelona can lose in football thats O.K. but not in dancing. No 1 in the rankings must always be No.1 in the opinion of those why cry "cheat" and "unfair". In the 52 we have 10 each Italy and Ukraine, Russia x 8, China and Denmark 5 each , Canada and Spain 2 each, and 1 each Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Rep, England, Estonia, USA, Israel, Poland, France, Germany. .
webminder Joined on 13 Nov 2008 Total posts: 46	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Sunday, 24 May 2009 14:22 ....you make a good point, one or two collaborating judges cannot bring supported couple into a final if the couple sucks. But the couple will probably make good in the first few rounds.... Is that what was implied with the English example ? Or, is it implies that the English couple has made it just as the hosting countries ugly girl somehow always makes it close to the finals during the countries beauty pageant ? In a "onyourtoes accustomed / characteristic way" you twist what is being said, then cry fault and claim personal attack... NO ONE suggested that ALL adjudicators are corrupt, but the handful which is corrupt ( or acts in a very peculiar manner ) makes the dancesport competition an unfair affair, with results screwing ( skewing ? ) data, and disappointing, upsetting, even turning away and turning off possible participants. 10 undeserved recalls, from 2 collaborating judges, as suggested above , especially in large comps (like Blackpool), make huge difference in overall results, never mind the opinion of the remaining judges....as many early round competitors receive just a few recall.... Fortunately, and I hope I am correct, and so far the Blackpool results are indicative of more reasonable placement, s compared with many IDSF events , including the IDSF Worlds. Brave to defend such and the IDSF adjudicators ? Naturally you may wish to continue to suggesting that everything just fine, that dancers should keep the heads in the sand, not worry about judging, sounding just like the judges being discussed. Just look how many competitors were knocked of their pedestal during Blackpool event. Is it the Blackpool judges inexperience, omission that some countries top dancers, are knocked 60 + points ? In my opinion, if dancers want to face reality and see where they stand against others, if dancers want true comparison against the "world", they need to attend events such as Blackpool. Naturally, even Blackpool is not immune the "recognition by judges" phenomenon, the reason why dancers arriving to Blackpool wees earlier and taking many lessons appear to have a better chance to be noticed, but such is the world of sport which cannot be measured with a tape measure, with a scale, or timed with a stopwatch.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Sunday, 24 May 2009 19:42 It was my understanding that this topic was started since the suggestion was dancesport would not be included in the Olympics because of its unfair judging system. Now on Page 2 it seems it is just a "handful" of bad adjudicators! Which is it? webminder NO ONE suggested that ALL adjudicators are corrupt, but the handful which is corrupt ( or acts in a very peculiar manner ) makes the dancesport competition an unfair affair, with results screwing ( skewing ? ) data, and disappointing, upsetting, even turning away and turning off possible participants. ---- Now what I would suggest competitors is that each time you compete you want to pin the blame on 1 or 2 "corrupt" or "colluding" judges not marking you (and it happens often enough to drive you away) there might be a far more logical explanation! However we all know that there are incompetent judges and judges who are less than honest and once you can identify them stay away when they are employed. Can I mention here that back in 2007 Mr Freitag in an interview announced that it could not be right that one judge marked a couple 1st and one judge marked the same couple last. I think he meant 6th in a final. He was not able to explain why however. It happens in every other sport with human adjudicators and in a high class final should be understandable. In that same interview he promised that by September 2007 IDSF would have a whole new judging criteria! The IDSF competitors still wait but then of course we continually read of the great things IDSF are doing/introducing and nothing comes from it. Just one example - Remember the Olympic Dancesport Trophy? I am amused at the very old chestnut of couples spending weeks in England prior to Blackpool having lessons with the judges so they reach quarter/semi and finals. No one can ever identify these couples to me nor how they knew which coaches to book since those were the ones on the Blackpool Board. Most important how they have the money to afford it!! All the weeks prior to the UK and then prior to Blackpool and then again prior to the International must cost a fortune and how they can get the holidays from their employers is another of the dance mysteries FAct. I do know one couple who spent a week in England and had 2 HOURS every day with their one and only English coach who was NOT on the panel AND they reached the semi final. I cannot imagine a system more likely to drive competitors away than a system where only one result can be correct. That every judge must mark the same and that there is no hope of a different panel reaching a different result. A system where a couple will be denied the thrill of finding one judge not known to them marked them winner. The habit of deciding "placings" on recalls is also imperfect. Often the finalists are actually placed differently to the recalls achieved in the semi. Think. 9 judges. No 10 gets recalls 3 3 3 3 8 = 20. Couple 20 gets recalls 4 4 4 4 3 = 19. Athough no 20 got more recalls in 4 dances they finish behind 10 overall!! Fair/Unfair? Guess it depends if you are no. 10 or No. 20.
webminder Joined on 13 Nov 2008 Total posts: 46	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 25 May 2009 15:15 suppose there are grounds we can agree on..
think of me Joined on 05 Aug 2005 Total posts: 288	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 26 May 2009 12:35 love is is in the air.......?? Re-" I do know one couple who spent a week in England and had 2 HOURS every day with their one and only English coach who was NOT on the panel AND they reached the semi final." There is an exception to every rule. Do not underestimate the power of healthy trade between teacher and a student and the business appreciation of a customer. Couples who stay longer and take more lessons from the mentioned judge(s) do end up with more recalls than other years when they do not.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 26 May 2009 14:57 think of me There is an exception to every rule. Couples who stay longer and take more lessons from the mentioned judge(s) do end up with more recalls than other years when they do not. ---- Sorry. Which RULE are you indicating? When a couple gets a different number of recalls between years it should not be surprising. No one should read anything into that. That is a healthy state of affairs. 1. A different panel will always produce a different result. Thank Goodness. If couples felt differently they would have no reason to compete. 2. A couple will dance different choreography and be received differently. It may suit them better or not as well. 3. A couple will dance better or not as well. That is exactly why we need judges with knowledge and ability and mark what they see. 4 A couple will compete against different competitors. Finally. To me it is to be expected that a couple will perform better having had intensive coaching with top class coaches.
webminder Joined on 13 Nov 2008 Total posts: 46	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 26 May 2009 17:37 ...why bother, the sand a foot below the hot surface is cooler, and some find keeping one's head deep in the sand rather soothing. Which rule ? I read and understand it as any rule. Of course both of you have a point and can argue it to no end, I thank you for your responses, having 4 contributor is indeed a success. You each probably refer to a specific dancers who either got better, or worse marks, and you try justify/explain your own ways. Disagreement is allowed, while you both may be correct. I miss any comment pertaining to my opening remarks, and suspect all agreed that the suggested problems with judging dancesport shall continue to disillusion everyone unless changed. Thanks I am done with this one.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 26 May 2009 18:53 webminder Which rule ? I read and understand it as any rule. I miss any comment pertaining to my opening remarks, and suspect all agreed that the suggested problems with judging dancesport shall continue to disillusion everyone unless changed. ---- Please read again it might make many things clearer .. e.g. think of me Re-" I do know one couple who spent a week in England and had 2 HOURS every day with their one and only English coach who was NOT on the panel AND they reached the semi final." There is an exception to every rule. Do not underestimate the power of healthy trade between teacher and a student and the business appreciation of a customer. Couples who stay longer and take more lessons from the mentioned judge(s) do end up with more recalls than other years when they do not. ---- Hence my question----Which Rule? Lots of comments relating to your opening post and like all topics it develops. Ask the winner of any competition if they are disillusioned by the judging system. The answer might surprise you and dispel your suspicion. If your claim re disillusionment had any validity week after week competitions would be run devoid of entries. As I said much earlier the judging system is not the reason dancesport will not be in the Olympics.
think of me Joined on 05 Aug 2005 Total posts: 288	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 26 May 2009 19:37 onyourtoes As I said much earlier the judging system is not the reason dancesport will not be in the Olympics. ---- Suppose if you were the know-it-all, or, God. Since just 'onyourtoes', it is just an opinion. Others have theirs. I am also out.
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Saturday, 06 June 2009 07:12 It seems to me the discussion on judging and dancesport is not dealing with the real issue. Which in my humble view should be the following: First, are ballroom dance competitions a sport?.We had them for many years and as I recall not many of the competitors at the time considered it a sport. The IDSF did a great job of lobbying the IOC and got dancesport recognized as a sport by the IOC. Unfortunately they did not define what dancesport was. And they still haven't. They just unilaterally said that the ballroom comps developed by the professionals were now dancesport. The problem with this, is that a sport is primarily (solely) about your relative standing.against others in an activity that depends on the competitors skill in performing a defined activity – running, jumping, swimming. Before you say what about figure skating, I can assure you that there are many in the Olympic movement who do not think figure skating should be a Medal Sport. Dancing, for example ballet, is not a sport. There are ballet competitions. The variance in judging marks (if they have more than one judge) is probably similar to our ballroom competitions. This is a characteristic of art. Sure there are "crooked" judges in everything. But that isn't the problem in "dancesport". The problem is in pretending that the present form of ballroom dance competitions is a sport. It wasn't at the beginning and it isn't now. That doesn’t mean that it could not be made closer to a sport. But that is the job of the IDSF and they haven't done it. As far as the Olympic Medal Sports are concerned remember this. The number of medals sports are limited to the existing number. There are a few others who may displace one of the existing sports and gain Medal Sport status. But dancesport has never been considered in this group. And remember it is the current medal sports who vote for any changes. The chances of dancesport being included as a Medal Spor is as close to zero as you can get. In a real sport, the competitors and the audience all know who the winner is. In "dancesport' the winner varies with the judging panel. Take a panel of 13 judges. Then from their marks select other panels of 7 judges. Most of the time you can get any result you want. In sport the winner must depend on the effort of the participant. In dancesport it depends on the judges. That's OK for art. Don't complain about it. It's not sport.