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Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???


gabriela_s Joined on 09 May 2009 Total posts: 6	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Saturday, 06 June 2009 12:29 Do not complain about it, it is not a sport ? Are you serious ? Lets say you are an Artist. You dedicate your life to your Art, you train hard, you are dedicated, talented, you invest in lessons from the best. Your career and success depends on recognition of your Art . To be recognized you enter Art competition, judged by licensed Art adjudicators. Not only do you not win, but get slottered, humiliated, put down and lose to a local 2nd grade kid who enters his/her "artwork" and wins because his/her dad happens to be on a local council, and known to the adjudicators, or because several judges collude and collaborate, or because your Aer happened to be in the corner of the room and several judges could not be bothered to take a step sideways to "discover" it. Would you, the serious artist, be happy and not complain, would you be looking forward entering your artwork in future Art competition suspecting the licensed Art judges would evaluate your artwork by the benefit their "judgin" would bring to their lives, and their bank accounts ? It does not matter if Dance is Art or Sport. If your ( Art / Sport) discipline allows competition the rules of separating the winners from losers, the good from bad, and further refining into good, better, the best need be fair otherwise the participants may get upset and completely turned off "competitions" , unless they enter " competitions" for fun, not at all concerned with results, or are new, naive. ignorant, or desperate for punishment, or clever to realize the fact of life, the wealkness of the "system" and have learned the art of buying the marks by manipulating the judges. I was raised in the believe that copeting was healthy, I competed against my siblings, competed in school to be the best, competed for a good jobs, compete with cowprkers, when drivin a car, compete to finish a crossword puzzle faster than my boyfriend, at the cottage we race accros the lake who is the fastest, I believe competition is healthy and as such have always sought and looked forward to enter competitions... that is till discovering our beloved "dancesport" and what wemmaster called bull #@! Unless you complain you will never see improvement, it can get only worse. If the guilty parties are allowed to get away with it, their actions will become habits to the detriment aff all serious competitors.
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Saturday, 06 June 2009 23:20 you said: Do not complain about it, it is not a sport ? Are you serious ? Do you mean am i serious that it is not a sport. Yes, and I am not alone. If you mean ,am I serious that you should not complain. Yes again. It is not a sport and for that reason you should expect a variance in the judges marks?
ricardo Joined on 19 Dec 2008 Total posts: 9	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Sunday, 07 June 2009 16:21 "Variance" has always depended on who you know, who knows you and if you paid the dues to the system. Dance judging has been, is and always will be affected by corrupted judges who will continue to piss off many dedicated dancers. If you do not play the ball you are excluded from the game by these judges . Dance excellence has little do with it. If they do not beat upon you they keep shamessly promoting their own, the dancers who cater to their needs. Bull %$@ continues undetered, no professional association will take action, they do not go against your own, esepciallu since many are guilty at one point or another, helping your couples is a accepted norm at all levels. Unfortunately.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 06:44 There seems to be a direct link. The less talented the dancer the more accusations the adjudicators are corrupt
clarkson2stuart Joined on 24 May 2009 Total posts: 9	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 13:47 Well said onyourtoes.
ricardo Joined on 19 Dec 2008 Total posts: 9	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 14:30 Definitely ! Losers always look for excuse, try blame and attack others than critique themselves. HOWEVER, that is a separate issue and one would be in a denial if refused to believe, accept and confirm that competitors cannot be judged fairly under the conditions outlined by webminder in his/her opening remarks, or, to avoid splitting hairs - marks awarded by specific and individual adjudicators are way off - not accidentally ( which would be acceptable ) but purposely and in a calculated, predetermined manner, with the goal to "help/assist " specific dancers , which unfortunately results in hurting "others" ( more deserving ). You certainly are a fine individual and would not expect anyone to post names of judges with specific examples, ( refersnece & statistics are available ) as one would not have to go further than providing examples from top IDSF competitions. One would also need question the reasons for recent, Blackpool "ankle injury" in Q/F and a withdrawal from the prestigious competition by the anticipated and expected Ballroom Champions... We can beat around the bush look for accuses and exceptions in support of "correct and uncorrupted judging of Art " .....but we know and accept that the most adjudicators do know, and recognize and can separate the "best", the "good", and the "bad", and therefore must have their reasons when they mark "bad" ahead of "good" , while other judges do not. This is where webminder's concerns lies, I believe.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Feb 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 15:39 ricardo............any person who has ever looked at judges marks knows that there are those who mark in a "very strange" manner. What I cannot accept in webminders opening is that the entire system is corrupt. Webminder would chop down the entire orchard because a few apples had worms. As I have said so many times In the final analysis one judge cannot alter the result. On a 5 panel you need 3 corrupt. On a 7 panel you need 4 corrupt. If we are going to go down the "witch-hunt" road we could end up attacking and penalising the 2 or 3 honest judges on a particular panel. In another topic you wisely wrote ricardo On another hand, if in Berlin judges a low rank dancer ahead better rank dancer, could the low rank dancer danced better this time and judging was with no politicking, not based on knowing, awarness of results, and so relly fair ??? This is problem with dancesport the way I see. ---- Problem is many will not accept this they believe results must remain constant and variation and "there is "corruption". For me the general standard is very high and I would far rather see a result 1 1 1 4 6 than 1 1 1 1 1,and 2 2 2 2 2 plus 3 3 3 3 3. This is when I become suspicious. When you wrote in your immediate previous post ricardo We can beat around the bush look for accuses and exceptions in support of "correct and uncorrupted judging of Art " .....but we know and accept that the most adjudicators do know, and recognize and can separate the "best", the "good", and the "bad", and therefore must have their reasons when they mark "bad" ahead of "good" , while other judges do not. ---- I share your feelings 100%. Most Adjudicators do try to sort out the the bad and the good and then the best and this is why I cannot accept the webminder suggestion that it is all "bull #@! ". Dropping the best and worst marks will solve nothing. Making the scrutineer who is not watching the dancing responsible is no answer. People get to know the bad judges and if they were sensible would stay away but let the organiser know why. Of course sometimes the organiser selects the panel for the desired result but thats another story.
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 17:49 There are many of you who agree that judges can differentiate between the best, the not so good and the worst dancers. But is that true? Well in general they can. In fact most of us can. When we see one couple lurching around the floor and another gliding smoothly by them, it's not difficult. But what we are talking about here are competitions between the best in the world. Should the difference's between them be great? Well lets look at other sports - running, swimming, jumping etc. Six of the best competitors in their field compete against each other. What are the differences in what they achieve? We know it is measured in fractions of a percent! In this casse we can measure the difference in performance of these individuals accurately. And it is pretty much the same in all SPORTS. Without discussing whether dancing is a sport or not, we can certainly assume that the differences between the top couples are very small. Here is the dilemma. No one knows what we are measuring! Yes there are judges who are biased, for what ever reason. But if you accept that the differences between the top couples are truly very small – the same as differences are between the top couples in any sport – and in fact in any measurable endeavour – then how on earth can this be measured when we cannot define what we are measuring? The solution? Accept it. It is not a sport – at least in its present format. Stop blaming the judges. They are a lot more honest then many of you seem to believe.
giovani Joined on 03 Dec 2008 Total posts: 20	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Monday, 08 June 2009 18:37 The disagreement and differed opinions are probably because the readers base their observations on their own examples. One suggests probably results from finals, that is based on their sugesting final placements as 1111111, 2222222, etc, another suggests, such as quicktime2 competition of World's top dancers whose skils are almost identical, and differencies noted only to the eye of the most skilled adjudicators, another suggests that 2 collaborating judges, or, a single judge who for whatever reason wants to help his/ her couple ( student ) can have a significant influence on the results in 1/8, or 1/4 final in a competition where having 5 "unexpected" recalls ( forget 10 if 2 judges work together ) has a huge effect. It is important to discuss identical case. Quicktime writes he/ she accepts "Yes there are judges who are biased, for what ever reason" but suggests that we accept it. Well, this may be true if seeing the top notch dancers in a dance we know little about, where all dancers appear to us dancing the same... we may even prefer the eventually the one ranked Last. But what about the local and regional competitions where the "packing order" is well established. Should the final results differ from the established order , drastically differ, in the opinion of the judges, also known to be teachers amd promoters of the couples ? The same judges who obviously disagree with the opinion of the judges majority ? No one suggested dishonesty, just bias and possinle corruption which may help one while hurting the others. If you all accept that some judges are guilty of questinable conduct, why would you not want to question and better. remedy the situation. Why would you suggest the acceptance is in order ? I agree blame without evedence is empty and not at all the way to go, but providing evidence and holding judges accountable should be implemented.
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Aug 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Tuesday, 09 June 2009 07:58 Let me put it another way. We must accept dishonest judges (although I do not think there are many in the highest ranked competitions) because it is difficult to be sure of why they marked the way they did. In a race the winner is the one who crosses the line first. We only need one judge with an appropriate camera. We don't need 11 judges. If we put 6 paintings on the wall and ask which is the best, is there a satisfactory answer? Regardless of how many judges we have? If we asked which is the biggest? One judge would be sufficient. Or which has the most colors. One judge would be sufficient. But if we can't define the criteria no number of judges will help give an unique answer. Ask yourself, do all judges use the same criteria and give the same weight to each of them. We know the answer is no. Maybe it is all bull#@! But don't blame the judges, we asked them to give us their opinion and they did. Sure there are biased judges, particularly at local comps. But in my view judging ballroom comps has a lot more fundamental problems than the pathetic wretches (ie the dishonest judges) who try to fiddle with the marks