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Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

   
jive2004
Joined on 02 Nov 2006
Total posts: 118

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Monday, 13 July 2009 20:32

 

 

 

Rising from a few years ago  dream,  CanadaDanceSport  is ready not just host IDSF competition,  but allow Canadian Seniors 1 to  cross their  swords with the World's best Senior1 dancers.

With emergency health professional alerted  and standing by,  and a great anticipation from the appreciative spectators  the following event is one not to miss in  September 17-19th, 2009".

Canada DanceSport will hold


IDSF Senior I Standard World Championships,

in the new, unique and quite spectacular :  K-Rock Centre in  Kingston, Ontario
Website: www.canadadancesport.com

Best time to visit Canada is the early fall, it is still warm, dry, with tree leaves starting to show their brilliant colours. Kingston is appreciative and welcomes visitors, and Josef Riha,  his staff and especially  the volunteers have always made us feel so  welcome and at home.

See you in Kingston -  the  warm up Sept. 17th Senior 1 Open,  the real thing, The World's - Sept. 19 th.    
longshot
Joined on 10 Mar 2009
Total posts: 12

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 13:20

It is probably a Longshot,  but it appears that little competition is good  for and brings the best in  Canada. 

 

Of course, anyone can name their competition "The World's"  as the term is not a registered trade mark  but the word World's itself has a magic  power. There is a suggestion  we will see the very best  of dancing , which itself draws the curiosity of both the dancers,  the spectators and the undecided.

 

Now the Canadians appear to hold  both the Amateur and the Professional World Championships, and just one month apart, apparently  the best time of the year to visit Canada. 

 

Would it not be wonderful if the Professionals and Amateurs could compete on the same floor during the same event, both groups benefiting from the wonderful experience, utilising the presiding WDC and IDSF adjudicators,  making this a true celebration where the members abiding the rules of their dancesport organizations could rub shoulders and see for themselves how little difference there is between the two, which could potentially result in resolving their differences and end to  all  the b.s.  ? 

 

It is so important that the word World's is not misused.  The promised  World Championships must be  what they  promise , and  the best World Champions indeed are expected to enter, arrive and compete to the amazement and satisfaction of all those who believed they will see  such a great spectacle.

 

This is a wonderful news for  Canadian dancesport/ ballroom, and lets keep our fingers crossed  in hope that  the Organizers can live up to their promise and that they deliver for  the benefit of us all. 

 

I'll be back in October to report  the statistics.
think of me
Joined on 05 Aug 2005
Total posts: 288

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 14:50

@longshot

 

No need to wait till October.

The World's Senior 1 in Kingston took place 19 September , with the results already reported to IDSF.   Looking at the results  I question the judges qualification and the selection  to adjudicate such an important event  and also the criteria  used  to determine who the new  World Champion and the the runner up may be .

Is dancesport judged differently in Korea ?  What is going on ? 

In the Finals,   the Korean judge has completely  disagreed with the rest of the adjudicators placing the new Senior 1  World Champion from Belgium   65565  ,   placing the 2nd place  - Italian dancers  54444 ,   while  also  disagreeing on the 3 spot by  placing Tasillo and Sabine Lax  of Germany  last in the most dances (46646).

The Korean would rather see a French couple, which ended up overall  5th,  as his  new World Champions with  21121 ,  followed by the Hilderbrands of  Germany  as his  runner ups with 12212, the couple that placed 6th in the finals.

Of course we  welcome  and anticipate differences of opinions,  but ....  is it  really   OK for  the Korean  adjudicator  Mr. Su-Tu  Ok   to  be so far off ,  is it  OK for  a  judge with such a diiferent view of what is a good dancing   adjudicate such an important event   ? 

 

 

 

 
peter
Joined on 13 Jan 2005
Total posts: 495

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 16:52

Concentrating only on your last sentence, and of course only my personal opinion: yes, it is OK.

As long as differing opinion is just differing opinion, and is not marking based on something other than what the judge sees on the dance floor, of course.

The reason we have so many judges is to have different aspects considered. Some of those aspects may be false - however if they are, majority will prevail (as it did this time). Bringing up these differences in opinion is healthy because it may give an opportunity for judges or other professional bodies to discuss the foundations of the different markings (after the event is completed, of course), hence encouraging the exchanging of different ideas. Eventually this discussion may led to discarding the foundations which led to the judge to mark differently (probably most frequently it will). From time to time, however, it may lead to discoveries that contribute to the development of dancing.

To say that everyone should mark very similar to each other is a pressure which would lead to judges looking at each other, rather than the dancefloor. In my opinion, judges should be free to judge completely independently. Which, incidentally, is not the same as not having a governance structure around judging (to make sure all markings are fair and differences in markings are only down to differences of professional opinion and nothing else).

 
sambatogo
Joined on 29 Aug 2007
Total posts: 280

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 17:35

peter,

Sambatogo agrees with pretty much everything you have stated. except that in your last sentance you say "professional oppinion" but these judges in IDSF are not always a "professional" in the way most would consider it to mean. Many may not know that their judges at IDSF events may be Amateurs, even at a World Championship.
onyourtoes
Joined on 12 Feb 2007
Total posts: 657

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 17:56

Peter I agree.  Sambatogo also makes a valid point.  There must be experience and knowledge gained over years. Thinkofme I share your concerns when judges are not marking the eventual winner in the quarter final. 

I find it difficult to understand why people expect total unanimity in a final.  Under the skating system we are guaranteed an overall selection result and that is the important thing.  The judge who marks totally differently plays little part in the final result.

In a World Championship it is natural you will get many top class couples (ability according to age group) and you will get a difference of opinion.  This is healthy and the alternativeis  judges ignore what they see and mark "past results and reputation",

On 12th September there was the IDSF World Youth Latin in China. On 19th September there was the IDSF World Junior  II Standard in Finland.  In both those events the winners received 6s as well as 1s.
longshot
Joined on 10 Mar 2009
Total posts: 12

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 18:50

Absolutely !  We need different opinions. We need  get away from the suggested collusion...

It is  obvious  the Korean judge preferred the style/dance ability of the 5th and the 6th placement to one of the  winner and the runner up.

 Just as we want to see different opinions,  we want to believe the adjudicators can adhere and follow  their own  vows.

After having read a detailed adjudicator's oath and promising  complete impartiality ,  a judge is  also completely in her right to support with her  3 recalls (out of the total  5 recalls received   from all the  judges )   her own country's national representative in the first and the only danced round. 

Just as the Korean judge is entitled to his opinion,  so are the rest of the judges.

May  their opinions raise a few eye brows ? Yes,  but just as Peter, Onyoutroes  have responded,  the skating system takes care of these odd and possibly brows raising actions, and at the end  they do not realy matter  ?  

  Why  even bother reading the  Oath of impartiality ?  The skating system  is here to take care of things ....or is it ?

 
onyourtoes
Joined on 12 Feb 2007
Total posts: 657

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 20:03

Longshot I think people can unfortunately drive themselves crazy clinging to the "collusion" theory.

Just for a moment look at the couple placed 2nd. Italians.

In the recent German Open they defeated the winners of this World Champ. 

At this World Championship in Canada the Italians were marked a complete mixed hand.

Their worst judge was from USA so what his motive?  Perhaps no motive just his opinion on what he saw and looked for.

Waltz

5 1 2 2 4 1 5 2 5 3

Tango

2 3 1 1 3 1 4 3 6 2

V. Waltz

3 2 2 2 5 1 4 2 6 3

Slow Foxtrot

4 1 2 1 4 1 4 3 5 3

Quickstep

3 1 1 1 4 1 4 2 5 2

The pink box is their finishing place in that dance.  This is where the Skating system really does help sort out mixed marks and takes care of the "out of step" markings. 

 Who were the "bad" judges.  Those marking 4/5/6 or those marking 1 or 2 ?  

Will we allege "collusion" because the Italian judge marked 5 1sts, but what then about the other 2 judges who also had them as their overall winner?

What about the Champions who WON Quickstep without a single 1 placing.

2 3 2 2 2 2 5 3 2 1

In Quickstep the 2nd placed overall couple had 4  x 1sts, the 3rd placed couple had 3 x 1sts and the 5th Place couple had 2.  Yes the Canadian judge agreed with the Korean judge in this dance!  Did they "collude"?

So long as it is an unbiased honest assessment that is fine. That is why the judges are there.

The problem however is that total confidence in the knowledge and abilities of an IDSF board is lacking from Spectators and competitors.

Certainly the crazy suggested new system will not change anything in fact probably provoke even more controversy.  When humans are involved there will always be subjective opinions.

Now what really might upset people, and especially our Ontario friends, is that from 2001 to January 2008, the couple who placed third competed as Professional. They have their own dance school http://www.tanzschulelax.de/ueber-uns/tassilo-sabine.html.  Oh Yes! The German judge gave them 5 x 1st

Remember though IDSF believe only in "Athletes",  well that is their "on and off" policy. That is the "joy" of dancing IDSF.
peter
Joined on 13 Jan 2005
Total posts: 495

Re: Canada's Seniors challenge the World

Sunday, 20 September 2009 21:30

sambatogo

... in your last sentance you say "professional oppinion" but these judges in IDSF are not always a "professional" in the way most would consider it to mean. Many may not know that their judges at IDSF events may be Amateurs, even at a World Championship.

----

 Sambatogo, I meant "Professional" in the wider meaning of the word. I.e. somebody who is approaching its job being fully prepared, knowing and following all relevant codes and rules and does their best to help fulfil the objectives his role was set up to perform, independently of his person.