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Donnie Burns, MBE* - Part 2

from England

Dancesportinfo : We have talked before about your vision of dance, whether it should be a sport or not

Donnie Burns : I believe it's only a sport when it's done badly!

Dancesportinfo: So can you describe how you see dance?

Donnie Burns: The difference between sport and art is that sometimes, not always, art has a message. Sport doesn't. There is no doubt that one has to be fit enough as an athlete to compete at the world level but it's not the end of equation. That's similar to saying that because I have the correct equipment I am automatically guilty of rape [laughs]!!
I
in the dance studiodon't necessarily agree with such a black and white statement.
The fact that one has to be fit enough as an athlete to portrait an expressive, motivating, moving art message doesn't mean that one is necessarily an athlete! But if you said to me: Donnie, for all those 15 times that you and Gaynor won, would you like to have one Olympic gold? The answer would be absolutely yes, without a shadow of the doubt, of course, who wouldn't. But would that make me accept the definition that Gaynor and I were epitome of being athletes I would shudder and say no, not at all!
Just to be clear, I've got absolutely no problem what people want to call a sport, I am fine with that, and if the world wants to buy it as a sport, which I doubt, I am fine with that.
What I worry about, what concerns me, is that if we, the dancing people, start to believe it really is a sport, if the sporting mentality takes precedence, then we start to go on the wrong line. I go back to BBC for example, they always classified dancing as LE, light entertainment, and I think that's what it is.

"The difference between sport and art is that sometimes, not always, art has a message. Sport doesn't"

Dancesportinfo: Do you believe that if ballroom and latin dancing was accepted as a sport in England, as it is in some countries, it would increase the number of children interested in it?

Donnie Burns : No, I don't. Because I haven't seen it! I don't think that dancing makes a very good sport. We don't have red cards, we don't have goals and we don't have penalty kicks. Darts is a sport, but I don't see seven year olds lining up to play darts with a Fosters in their hands!

Dancesportinfo: Ok, but in schools for instance, young boy dancers are too embarrassed to say that they are dancers because of how it is perceived.

Donnie Burns : Yes, I know what you're talking about. It's not a thing to do. Right.

Dancesportinfo: And there are not that many boys dancing. So maybe if it was called a sport, and wasfinanced by the government as a sport, it could change the stereotypical view of it within boys.

Donnie Burns: I am not sure about that. If you made ballet a sport I don't think boys would be more encouraged either. I agree that we have a credibility problem in this country, but I don't think you can cure it by calling it a sport. I think the problem is more deep and a little bit more complex than that. You could call it a sport but not be any further at all. I think that you have to redress the public perception of it. If you called ballet a sport tomorrow, you would not have the average seven year old male more inclined to do it.


setting up some music

Dancesportinfo : You have to have an artistic soul?

"Technique, if it's good and if it's understood and applied correctly, allows more expression, more creativity, more possibilities"

Donnie Burns : Exactly, I think so. And the less you encourage artistic mind on its own and more you encourage this artistic mind to be a hybrid with sport the more you dilute it.
I actually believe, and I hope I am wrong, but I believe that dancing will always be an interest of the minority. I would die for it, but so is painting or novel writing. There is only one Mona Lisa!

Dancesportinfo : Which do you think is more important in dancing: technique or expression?

Donnie Burns: I don't agree with the statementin in dancing of expression versus technique. This statement is exactly the misunderstanding I don't agree with. I don't agree that technique is in one direction and the expression is somewhere in the opposite. If one thinks that you can either be going for technique this way or the opposite going for expression, then one portraits a very poor understanding of technique. Technique, if it's good and if it's understood and applied correctly, allows more expression, more creativity, more possibilities.
The more technique feels restricting - you've either got rubbish technique or a bad understanding of it. So I am always weary when people say that. Technique to me is not three eights of a turn and foot turned out, that's not what I think of as technique. It's foot work. And footwork in the broad spectrum of technique is probably like orange in the electromagnetic spectrum. I think technique is something which allows you greater time, greater balance, greater possibilities.
The difference between a great dancer and the rest of the world is probably that a great dancer goes where they want, where they choose and whenever they choose. And the rest of the world probably move where they have to and whenever they have to. Therefore, I think the more one is in control the more options one has.

"The idea of practice and technique is that your worst possible performance becomes better. The more one is in control the more options one has"

Dancesportinfo : So technique is the means to the target?

Donnie Burns: I think technique is a combination of things and insurance policy for when you're not on a good night. If you are just an inspired dancer with bad technique, you don't have that insurance policy. The idea of practice and technique is that your worst possible performance becomes better. Because anybody can dance well when they are on a good night. It doesn't take Albert Einstein to do that. The chance of you feeling good on the day of Blackpool is very remote. So the idea of professionalism is that you cut down, you minimise the risk factors.
Donnie and Gaynor
Fairweather
The broader definition of technique is that you have an insurance policy regardless of personal fluctuations and that you have much more options than you would have otherwise. And it is a fundamental starting point.
I hear people saying, oh, on one hand you should work on your technique and on the other you should be working on your expression. To me that's a very poor understanding. It's like saying you can either work on becoming a better driver or you can make sure that the wheels are round! I can't see that.

Dancesportinfo : I am very much interested in your opinion about one of the most controversial subjects: judging. Obviously you have heard many times from people that judging is biased or unfair, that judges in themselves are unfair. How serious is this problem? Or perhaps, how much is it exaggerated by unsuccessful competitors?

Donnie Burns: OK, it is a very big question. I would be lying if I said that politics did not exist in dancing. I believe that there is politics in dancing, of course. And I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But I believe that there is politics in almost everything in life. But I don't think it's out of proportion in the danceworld to anything else.
It was always open to that criticism because it's subjective sport. It's not a ball in the net or the ball in the hole. It is subjectively judged sport. Therefore it will always be open to that criticism, always has been and always will be. I also believe that, for what I am led to believe, it is different in different countries. There are some eastern block countries in which not by lessons but by money there are allegations of fixing the results. Coming back to UK, that that one of the selling points for the events in this country is that, at least by the perception, they are of a decent integrity.
I have to say, with my hand on my heart, that I believe that over a period of, for example, a year all over the world the best dancers win. There will always be allegation of a problem of, if you have lessons with teacher X, teacher X will mark you. It's not a perfect system. The alternative is event worse. The alternative is that these top people don't judge and then you have other people who judge. They've tried that in ice-skating for example, I was talking to the gentleman in the ice-skating, the guy called Courtney Jones, who was telling me it was an unmitigated disaster! So I don't think that there is a better alternative...

"I believe that there is politics in almost everything in life. But I don't think it's out of proportion in the danceworld to anything else"

I am quite sure that an organiser could if they put their mind to it, possibly set up result for one couple on one night. I am sure that's possible. But I am also sure that they wouldn't be able to set up the rest of the world for the rest of the year! I don't think that's possible.

Dancesportinfo: Blackpool is known around the world as one of the fairest competitions...

Donnie Burns : It's perceived as that, yes.

Dancesportinfo: Maybe because all the judges are top ones?

Donnie Burns : But there was a real problem this year! I've just came back from China where people are up in their arms because there was one couple which were missed out on a Tuesday and Wednesday nights and the organisers re-ran the dance so they could dance. And there was another couple, from China, in the Professional Ballroom on a Friday night who were missed out, which was a human error, but the opposite decision was made which is not a human error! So we had one rule for Tuesday night and another one for Friday night!

"Whenever we had a bad result or a bad performance we always blamed our dancing and it is one of the secrets of our success!"

We can't have that. That's wrong. You can't treat people differently, you cannot say this is for Wednesday and this is for Friday! You must make a decision: that it's a human error and we don't run it again or that it's a human error and we do run it again! And you keep it constant for everybody.
I have just come back from China where people were screaming to me about it. It was not my decision, just because I was judging it, it was not my decision. But I can't defend it! And me saying that it was not my decision doesn't help! That's just the abdication of responsibility and I don't like it. And it happened on a festival which has been so known and so famous for so many years, quite rightly, for its integrity.

Dancesportinfo: So back to judging. People sometimes have the feeling that they have to have lessons with the judge just to have a chance of being marked.

Donnie Burns: I'll give you an example. I teach some of the top couples, but I mark them accordingly to how they perform on an evening.

Dancesportinfo: So we have to generally trust the integrity of the judge?

Donnie Burns: Yes. If you have judges of a certain integrity and calibre... Let me say it in other words. I wouldn't be very likely to mark you down because you didn't invite me to your party. That's ridiculous! So it would be equally ridiculous for you to say that I mark you to win because you invited me to your party!

Dancesportinfo: I believe you, of course! The question is are all the judges of that integrity...

Donnie Burns: That's always a question. Is it wrong to have a birthday party in which some of the people appear to be judges? And the answer is no, I don't think it is wrong. The Blackpool organisers ask you, please can you judge the competition but please do not publicise that you will, I honour that. But in the meantime, if you invite me to a wedding and I accept that doesn't mean that later when I am judging Blackpool that you and I are crooked.


The school has a licensed bar

Dancesportinfo: Yes, but you have earned this credibility. If we are talking about Blackpool most of the judges, if not all, already have that credibility, but it doesn't necessarily apply to other competitions around the world. Sometimes it's just gossip; but gossip can destroy anything.

Donnie Burns: Yes and no. I have heard these things since I was seven years old. I am forty six now and I was in competition dancing for 39 years now. And for 39 years I've been hearing all this stuff. But we are still here and Blackpool is still here and people still dance!
I think it's pathetic actually, that if somebody looses a competition they try to pick up on a such trivia. Gaynor and I weren't born winning. Nobody comes out of their mother's womb doing cucarachas. Whenever we had a bad result or a bad performance we always blamed the dancing and it is one of the secrets of our success! I never tried to blame the orchestra or the floor or the country. I, we, always blamed our dancing.

Dancesportinfo: The controversy in judging is seen mostly in lower level competitions. No one will judge Brian Watson sixth, it happens mostly only for John Smith. Assuming fair judging, is it because one judge prefers one style, considers one thing more important and expects it on a floor, while another doesn't?

"Even at the Brian Watson or Markus Hilton level there is some variation of performance within those two minutes. But it's not as vast, it's not as drastic"

Donnie Burns: It might be, it can be a variety of things. On one hand, at the very high level the difference between first, second or third is a fingernail of a difference, it's not vast. But it's easier to judge. At the very low level, or at the lower level, whether somebody is first or sixth depends on when you look.
I've been judging many times in lower level competitions and marked somebody first. Then you look back 20 bars later and they are off time. So you would mark them sixth. They are not consistent. Within a two minutes dance the variation in their performance is massive! Even at a high level, even at the Brian Watson or Markus Hilton level there is a variation within that two minutes, in that performance level. But it's not as vast, it's not as drastic. The bad is not as bad!
In Blackpool, on most of the competitions, I was quite convinced that in my opinion at the end of two minutes I have done what I thought was a good thing. There are many times, in lower level competitions, as I walked off the floor if you interviewed me and asked: Donnie, are you happy with what you judged of that dance? I would say: no, I can't swear by it, because I am not sure. I did my best within a time available at that point of time. So I think that could explain the variation in judging of the same couple, a lot more than any conspiracy theory. There always will be conspiracy theories, some of it maybe justified, but I am not sure how much and is it as much as it's supposed to be. There are a lot more sour grapes than conspiracy theories which are justified, in my opinion, because there is only one winner. And that means, in a subjective activity, for every winner you have five disappointees!

Dancesportinfo: It looks like you have different rules, different expectations from judges judging e.g. IDSF competitions and Blackpool. To judge Blackpool you have to br a previous winner, to judge IDSF you can be just about anybody with a licence. Is there still such a rule in Blackpool?

Donnie Burns: Well, it is not, sadly, as strictly applied as it used to be. It's still a percentage, and I wish it was more.

Dancesportinfo: Is there a conflict between amateurs and professionals?

"And that means, in a subjective activity, for every winner you have five disappointees!"

Donnie Burns: Let me put in perspective, to make it all accurate. I am Scottish and I danced for Scotland all my life. There is absolutely no conflict, for example, between myself, Gaynor and IDSF member in Scotland. I am the patron of the IDSF member in Scotland. Since I was Juvenile I enjoyed the best possible relationship with an IDSF, same with EADA. I had great connections, relations with Rita Thomas. Whenever they ask me to do the squad training, I always do it and I always give the money back. I've never taken any money from them and I have done a few things for them. I have done shows and I have always given the stuff back, sponsorships etc. Couple months ago I judged for IDSF in Holland, paid the money back, received the award with thanks. And the same with many countries. On the individual country basis, Gaynor and I, I in particular, had nothing but very good relations with IDSF.
I have, equally so, an inherent disapproval of corruption. There are allegations of corruptions in certain countries coming in. Regularly. Which, I think, we should try to distance ourselves from as much as we can, like IOC did it.
Donnie and Nicole - Supadance
advert
And also, to be fair, there are problems, politically, between WDDSC and the IDSF. As a matter of fact, in the danceworld as a whole at the moment... I've never known a period when things had so much lack of stability. And that's a matter of concern for everybody. At the end of the day, the couples, competitors just want to compete. They don't want to be bother with all that stuff.
And I've always done what I thought was the best for competitors. When I was organising Barcelona, it was easy to get the top professionals, because I have connections with them. We were putting all the money in the rising stars events and amateur events. Most of the pricing money went to amateur, amateur rising stars and professional rising stars events to help couples coming up. They need the help, you know. Brian Watson, Paul Killick, they earn the money. It's the couples in the 48 or 96 who really need the help.
So we put most of the money into that area.
When somebody dances it's a life's work. And they have the right to expect, whether or not they like the result, that their life's work is judged by the people of the highest calibre and of the greatest, humanly possible, integrity.
We had an agreement, the WDDSC with the IDSF, that WDDSC licences will be accepted by the IDSF. But that agreement, which has been written, in reality is constantly overridden by some of the member countries of the IDSF. Some of them. Our problem is not with the IDSF, our problem is with a minority, few in the administration.
And I believe they have just passed the rule, last month, that from 2005, the only people who will be able to judge the IDSF events are those with an IDSF licence. I would think, that for the interest of integrity, for the highest calibre of judges, it's a huge set back. If, what I am led to believe, it's true and the matter for some regret. There is no reason for any conflict if we all live and let live. WD&DSC could provide judges, and the IDSF could provide couples. If there is a good will, there's no need for conflict. And, as I say, there is a lot of good will. If I talk to EADA, if I talk to Scotland, to Poland, your country, I have a great relations with IDSF in Poland, the president is a good man and there was just a new agreement made between the professionals and the IDSF in Poland, which I believe is very good and will work very well for both sides in a future. That's what we want to see. Not conflict and certainly not a deliberate sabotage! This has to be a matter for some regret. The people in administration of both bodies should behave as statesmen and not as artistic terrorists.

Dancesportinfo: That's a strong statement!

Donnie Burns: That what's blowing up somebody's event is! Just for a hell of it. And there is no need for it. What we really need is a degree of stability. What puzzles me is that I really see no need for it!

"The people in administration of both bodies [WDDSC and IDSF] should behave as statesmen and not as artistic terrorists."

Dancesportinfo: Is there a hope to settle this in a reasonable timescale?

Donnie Burns: I think so, I am always hopefull. What we have to do in a WDDSC council is just to keep building our house and making it stronger and bigger and more attractive and better. That's all we do.

Dancesportinfo: I have a question which I would like to phrase in such a way that the answer is not boring [Donnie laughs ]. Everyone who goes on the website and reads this interview with you would like to know how a person can achieve so much. And I guess that your answer will be work, work, work and practice, practice, practice. But that's a boring answer, because everyone says that. I know there are no miracles but do you have some advice?

Donnie Burns: Walter Laird, who was my teacher, who sadly passed away, used to have some great phrases. He was very shrewd, very wise. And he used to say, the more somebody knows about a subject, the more easily they can explain it, the more simple the explanation is. If somebody half knows about it, the explanation is bloody complicated.
Is this the same in dancing? I don't think that everything is so difficult. At the end of the day, if you really understand it, it's reasonably simple. That doesn't means it's easy but it's simple, not complex.
There was a great definition of genius which was said to me few years ago, that the genius is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. I see a lot of talented, wonderful, young kids, and I would love to watch their dancing. But sometimes with all that beauty the God gave them, and with the elasticity of youth, energy, in aesthetic dancing terms, they can make the dancing look ugly.
Donnie with Nicole
Hansen at home in
Kent
There is a popular desire at the moment for speed and for side by side work. Now, the side by side work is a mistake, because it's not what we do. The subject matter of what we do we is very, very laser precise. We are not just dancers, the latin american dancers for example, we are latin american, competition dancers with a partner. That's different. The word competition makes the difference and 'with a partner' is a selling point of what we do. So the more is one side by side... if I go to see Argentinean Tango and it was all side by side and to disco music, I would want my money back! If I went to see Michael Jackson and seen a pair of folklore singers I would like my money back.
And for the desire for speed, it has gone too far. You never see a 500m gold medallist winner with charisma, because he is trying to beat the clock. So the faster one goes the less time there is for delivery for the message. The speed by itself can be a message and can be effective. But you're never going to make people cry with speed. You will impress them but you'll never, emotionally, touch their hearts.

Dancesportinfo: You can see, for example, Paul Killick's Paso Doble, where he moves extremely slowly but he is still moving when he stops!

Donnie Burns: Exactly. Dancing is like movie moments. These moments when there is slow motion, and you see a breath... Those are movie moments. Dancing for people, a lot of it, is nostalgia. It's based on memories. People go to see dancers or singers because they want to be moved. It's not just a kinetic series of movements. It can be that as well, it doesn't have to be all emotions. But at the end of a day, what we do has to move somebody somewhere. Otherwise it's just calorie burning! And it's not supposed to be just calorie burning.

Dancesportinfo: Would you agree with the statement that these remarks are mainly for amateurs and to a much lesser degree to professionals? That's my personal impression. When we watched couples which had just moved from amateur to professional, Darren Bennett for example, we noticed a big difference. You could see the depth, more inside work... while amateurs sometimes seem to just be exercising on the floor.

"People go to see dancers because they want to be moved. It's not just a kinetic series of movements, [...] not just calorie burning."

Donnie Burns: It's a different ball game! Regardless of dancesport council or whatever, when dancing is just treated as a sport is done badly. There is much more to dancing than just sport or we're missing the point. You might as well call sex a sport.

Dancesportinfo: The last subject I would like to talk to you about is how to use computers in dancing. We are computer professionals, software designers. We use computers every day. Computers have entered every aspect of everyday life. Artists use them, designers use them, novel writers use them. I believe that computers should have and will have a place in the dancing world as well, by pure logic. So in what areas of the danceworld, dancing society do you think computers would be useful?

Donnie Burns: The immediate answer is Internet and publishing information about the events. Designing websites to promote events for people who run dancing events, competitions, shows etc.

Dancesportinfo: So that's the Internet as a marketing tool. But if we go deeper than that. Take a photographer for instance. Probably each one of them is uses computer software, e.g. Photoshop, to change, enhance or create pictures. So do you think that it can be a designing tool for dancers? Maybe to design routines, to prepare music...

Donnie Burns : Some of it has already been done. There is this program, from Holland. I have a computer here with 13 000 music tracks. It is not widely used here, but reasonably widely used in Holland. There various other tools, there is a scrutineering system, that's been done. There is burning CDs and music libraries, there is this jukebox, if you like. It's working very well, and they have overcome the licensing issues, it's done. I don't know how much it costs, but for reasonable money you can get 13 000 tracks and burn CD out of it.

Dancesportinfo: I can tell you my dream...

Donnie Burns: Go on!

"It happened [..] at the German Open in Manheim. They [the judges] had touch screens where they marked the couples. And it was all on the monitors."

Dancesportinfo: There is a competition on which there is a big screen, on which you have a list of couples currently dancing. Each of the judges has a portable computer screen, instead a piece of paper. So when the music stops you have all the marks already!

Donnie Burns: We did that last year at the German Open in Manheim. They had touch screens where they marked the couples. And it was the all on the monitors. It happened only once. That was all. Yes, I think there is a great future for that. The thing that amazes me most about it is that it worked! I would have thought that there would be some sorts of problems, glitches. But it worked!


with Dmitrii and Anna

Dancesportinfo: Another example, there were only one or two competitions professionally recorded and transmitted through the Internet. Both from Romania, one of the Romanian Open. Not UK Open, not International, but Romanian Open.

Donnie Burns: Wonderful. I am sure that if you asked Fred Bijster to do that in Assen, he would do it like that.

Dancesportinfo: But why not England? We tried to provide results instantly on the internet, but the only scrutineer who helped was Joy Weller...

Donnie Burns: We would love to have results of the World series published instantly, but the problem is that organisers are afraid of that. But I am sure that Fred Bijster, if you talked to Fred in advance, would help here because he has made a decision to do that.

Dancesportinfo We are also interested in news, information, but not gossip. We don't want to publish rumours. We would like our website dancesportinfo.net to be like a BBC, not like Private Eye. We want to earn credibility, to show integrity. We want this website to be a real, professional journalism. So we need the help, cooperation from people of dancesport.

Donnie Burns: I can assure you that I am willing to help you as much as I can.

Dancesportinfo: Thank you for finding this time to talk to us and for the very interesting interview.

Back to Part 1

*MBE - Member of the Order of the British Empire, an honorary title given by the Queen